Expert Interview: Japanese Patent Translation & Litigation Interpretation, William Lise
Guest: William "Bill" Lise, Founder, Lise & Partners, Inc.
Host: James Santagata, Publisher, FirstPoint Japan and Principal Consultant, SiliconEdge.
Host: James Santagata, Publisher, FirstPoint Japan and Principal Consultant, SiliconEdge.
Running Time: 25 minutes, 45 seconds
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High Quality Version (192 kbps @ 44 khz, stereo)
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Mobile Device Version (128 kbps @ 44 khz, mono)
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William Lise
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William Lise comes from a background in engineering and has broad and intensive experience in providing patent translations for a wide spectrum of clients. Born in the US, he first came to Japan in 1967 as a language specialist for the US Navy. After returning to the US and obtaining a degree in electrical engineering, he joined what was then Western Electric, and worked in millimeter microwave and fiber optics laboratories. He subsequently joined a major manufacturer of electronic test and measuring instruments, founded its Japan branch, and served as the first branch manager, starting in 1976. Shortly thereafter, he transitioned to translation as a full-time activity, establishing the forerunner of Lise & Partners, Inc., and has since been deeply involved in Japanese patent and other technical translation.
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For this segment we spoke with William "Bill" Lise, Founder, Lise & Partners, Inc. about patent translations and patent litigation interpretation.
Representational Client List
Representational Client List
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Topics Covered Include:
A. Overview / Backgrounder
Perhaps nothing has greater informational and cultural asymmetries than the field of translation and interpretation and this is especially true of the patent translation and patent litigation interpretation field in Japan.
The translation business is often served by boutiques or even individuals as it is one of those businesses that can bring in a host of negative issues when the size of the business increases.
Bill has been in the business for over 30 years, primarily focused on patent translation and patent litigation interpretation in relation to depositions.
A deposition is a civil procedure in the US, whereby testimony is taking from each side's deponents before the commencement of a trial
This is an extremely niche area with perhaps only 2 or 3 others who are able to do this (patent litigation interpretation) in a native English to Japanese environment, while possessing a patent and/or technical background and who want to do it.
B. 3 Key Traits Needed For This Field
1. Domain expertise
2. Linguistic expertise
3. The ability to operate in a high-pressure, high-stakes arena
C. Simultaneous vs Consecutive Intepretation
When interpretation is mentioned, most people envision the high-profile simultaneous interpreting wherein the interpreter or interpreters sit in a booth much like the Nicole Kidman movie, The Interpreter (2005), sans the action, intrigue and violence.
Patent litigation interpretation is not simultaneous but consecutive and there is a requirement that the interpretations must be
extremely accurate.
As such, these depositions will have a lead interpreter and a check interpreter on the other side who will raise his or her hand if the lead interpreter does something incorrectly.
It can be very stressful.
D. IP Value Resides In Patents / The Value or Cost of the Interpreter
From the firm's (IP holders) point of view, with all of the money and resources being poured into R&D / innovation and subsequently being captured as patent IP or being used to acquire a patent or patent portfolio, the actual assertion of patent rights or defense against an assertion (in the English-Japanese language pair realm) can show how important a good interpreter is and how detrimental a poor interpreter is.
A good interpreter can save the deposition from sinking, floundering or meandering.
While a good interpreter may not "win the case", a poor or bad interpreter can easily sink the case or muck up the process so badly that a huge amount of very-expensive legal resources (i.e., money and time) may be wasted pursuing the wrong lines or trails.
E. Deposition Venues & Interpreter Certifications
In Japan, these patent depositions must be held either in only one of two venues:
1. The US Embassy in Tokyo (Akasaka)
2. The US Consulate in Osaka
So how exactly do we find, rank, assess and qualify our patent interpreters or any legal / court room interpreters?
While Bill is certified by the American Translators Association there is not a standard or universal interpretation certification for the courts / legal system.
In the US, certain states such as California, offer certifications for two Native American languages and Spanish but there is not provision for the Japanese language.
Likewise, there is not court certification in Japan either although there are some movements in Japan to change this.
F. How Do We Identify The Best Folks That Are Out There?
Since it is so hard for a non-interpreter or non-expert interpreter to identify and assess this talent, a good method is to use a referral from someone that has used that person before.
G. The Trend of Offshoring Patent Translation Work
Many information and even physical production industries have experience large amounts of business moving offshore.
How is this affecting the patent translation industry and is there an fears of this offshored IP, walking off, leaking out or somehow being diffused to quickly or to the wrong parties?
According to Bill there are a few factors.
First, much of this patent translation work that has moved offshore is for non-filing translations. This is where a law firm or a manufacturer wants to know what the patent says. Much of this works has moved or been moving to India and China, often though, the client may not be privy to this fact.
This offshoring moving has but significant rate pressure (i.e,., lowered the rates) for non-filing patent translation work.
Second, if you are dealing as Bill is, exclusively with large law firms or huge Japanese domestics this is not something that is impacted by the offshoring of work to India and China.
H. What Is Your Take On General Translators?
Translation is always about something. There is always some domain expertise (cultural expertise) even if it is slight.
Therefore, there is no such thing as general translation.
This reality is easy to imagine when we realize that often native English speakers can't speak confidently or competently about many fields such as pharmaceuticals as just one example.
In the high-tech industry, a interpreter or translator without the proper knowledge or domain expertise would be found out immediately. However, if the client goes trough a major tranlation firm such as Transperfect or LionBridge to name just two, there is a buffer between the translator and the client so this fact may be hidden to the detriment of the client.
So, as a translator, the fact is, the more specific you get, the more valued your services and translation work is and the more leverage you have to command higher rates for your work.
I. The 3 Pillars of Translations / Interpretation Work
1. Language source ability
2. Language target ability
3. Firm grasp of the "technology" (or domain expertise) in the middle
J. Does This Work Requirement Formal Language Training?
Bill entered the Navy in 1966 while the Cold War was raging and became a Russian language specialist. That later brought forth the opportunity to come to Japan and as a self-described autodidact. Bill seized the additional opportunity to learn and acquire the Japanese language.
His Japanese ability is self-taught. That is not to say there is anything against acquiring Japanese (or any language) through a formal education, but we should be aware that if the will is there, Japanese fluency can be acquired on one's own.
K. How Does The Japanese Language / Cultural Pressure For Nuance and Vagueness Affect This Process?
The deponent will have been prepped by his or her attorney prior to the deposition. And as such, they will have been coached or instructed on how direct, vague or indirect to be by said attorney.
But there are still issues. Take the Japanese term sumiwake ( 住み分け || すみわけ).
This can be a very innocuous term meaning "live and let live".... or "you have your space to live in and I have mine."
On the other hand, this can be interpreted (by US courts) as price fixing or dividing up the market. So how is this handled? It is extremely important how your interpreter handles such issues as interpreters don't have luxury of writing footnotes as a translator does.
L. What About the Difficulty In Mapping Concepts Between Cultures & Languages?
An example of this is corporate structures between the US and Japan, whereby the concepts are similar (shareholders, liability protection, etc.) but the actual mechanics, details and filing requirements may vary greatly.
So a C Corp. formation in US is similar to a Japanese K.K. (kabushiki gaisha) but doesn't map directly.
The same can be said with an LLC and the Japanese Yugen Gaisha (no longer an option, currently Y.G., such as Cisco Y.K. in Japan are grandfathers) and the Goudou Gaisha.
In interpretation and translation, accuracy is, therefore, extremely critical. This is even more important in bilingual patent depositions because a mistake or even missed nuance in the interpretive work can send an attorney down the wrong path wasting precious time and resources for each of these (very expensive) billable hours.
M. What Trends Do You See In The Market / Economy As Well As With The Globalization of Japanese Firms?
Over the last couple years, we've seen a continuous restructuring of the economy and a bit of a bumpy road for many industries.
At same time, it appears that IP battles are spinning up.
We seen Apples and Samsung suing each other.
We've seen Google purchase Motorola mobility reportedly for their patent portfolio (for patent defense).
Most of Bill's work is dealing with Japanees deponents such as when major manufacturers litigate against each other.
A trend in this regard is for Japanese firms to now more frequently use the ITC (International Trade Commission) to stop the infringements or to assert their patent rights.
The preferred venue is often the US and he has experienced this whereby two Japanese firms were fighting each other in the US over patents.
N. Non-Practicing Entities (NPE's) / Patent Trolls
The other trends is dealing with patent litigation brought against Japanese firms by the Non-Practicing Entities aka Patent Trolls.
These NPE's or Patent Trolls, may be organized around no more than two or three attorneys who have purchased a single patent or a portfolio comprised of just a few patents. They then assert their patents rights against (or prey on, depending your viewpoint) other companies.
These NPE's are the bane of many Japanese firms.
We also have seen many Japanese firms accelerating the globalization of their HR, expanding overseas directly or through M&A. Does this lead to more litigation in each of these foreign markets?
Not-necessarily. For instance, it's almost a non-starter trying to litigate to assert patent rights in China, so the firms in question would try to first assert patent rights, even against Chinese firms in the US courts or at a US venue first.
Increasingly, Chinese firms are also preferring to litigate in US courts or explore a US venue first.
O. Any Last Advice?
Again, when looking for expert and professional services, listen to someone who uses that person be they an interpreter, translator or related company.
A. Overview / Backgrounder
Perhaps nothing has greater informational and cultural asymmetries than the field of translation and interpretation and this is especially true of the patent translation and patent litigation interpretation field in Japan.
The translation business is often served by boutiques or even individuals as it is one of those businesses that can bring in a host of negative issues when the size of the business increases.
Bill has been in the business for over 30 years, primarily focused on patent translation and patent litigation interpretation in relation to depositions.
A deposition is a civil procedure in the US, whereby testimony is taking from each side's deponents before the commencement of a trial
This is an extremely niche area with perhaps only 2 or 3 others who are able to do this (patent litigation interpretation) in a native English to Japanese environment, while possessing a patent and/or technical background and who want to do it.
B. 3 Key Traits Needed For This Field
1. Domain expertise
2. Linguistic expertise
3. The ability to operate in a high-pressure, high-stakes arena
C. Simultaneous vs Consecutive Intepretation
When interpretation is mentioned, most people envision the high-profile simultaneous interpreting wherein the interpreter or interpreters sit in a booth much like the Nicole Kidman movie, The Interpreter (2005), sans the action, intrigue and violence.
Patent litigation interpretation is not simultaneous but consecutive and there is a requirement that the interpretations must be
extremely accurate.
As such, these depositions will have a lead interpreter and a check interpreter on the other side who will raise his or her hand if the lead interpreter does something incorrectly.
It can be very stressful.
D. IP Value Resides In Patents / The Value or Cost of the Interpreter
From the firm's (IP holders) point of view, with all of the money and resources being poured into R&D / innovation and subsequently being captured as patent IP or being used to acquire a patent or patent portfolio, the actual assertion of patent rights or defense against an assertion (in the English-Japanese language pair realm) can show how important a good interpreter is and how detrimental a poor interpreter is.
A good interpreter can save the deposition from sinking, floundering or meandering.
While a good interpreter may not "win the case", a poor or bad interpreter can easily sink the case or muck up the process so badly that a huge amount of very-expensive legal resources (i.e., money and time) may be wasted pursuing the wrong lines or trails.
E. Deposition Venues & Interpreter Certifications
In Japan, these patent depositions must be held either in only one of two venues:
1. The US Embassy in Tokyo (Akasaka)
2. The US Consulate in Osaka
So how exactly do we find, rank, assess and qualify our patent interpreters or any legal / court room interpreters?
While Bill is certified by the American Translators Association there is not a standard or universal interpretation certification for the courts / legal system.
In the US, certain states such as California, offer certifications for two Native American languages and Spanish but there is not provision for the Japanese language.
Likewise, there is not court certification in Japan either although there are some movements in Japan to change this.
F. How Do We Identify The Best Folks That Are Out There?
Since it is so hard for a non-interpreter or non-expert interpreter to identify and assess this talent, a good method is to use a referral from someone that has used that person before.
G. The Trend of Offshoring Patent Translation Work
Many information and even physical production industries have experience large amounts of business moving offshore.
How is this affecting the patent translation industry and is there an fears of this offshored IP, walking off, leaking out or somehow being diffused to quickly or to the wrong parties?
According to Bill there are a few factors.
First, much of this patent translation work that has moved offshore is for non-filing translations. This is where a law firm or a manufacturer wants to know what the patent says. Much of this works has moved or been moving to India and China, often though, the client may not be privy to this fact.
This offshoring moving has but significant rate pressure (i.e,., lowered the rates) for non-filing patent translation work.
Second, if you are dealing as Bill is, exclusively with large law firms or huge Japanese domestics this is not something that is impacted by the offshoring of work to India and China.
H. What Is Your Take On General Translators?
Translation is always about something. There is always some domain expertise (cultural expertise) even if it is slight.
Therefore, there is no such thing as general translation.
This reality is easy to imagine when we realize that often native English speakers can't speak confidently or competently about many fields such as pharmaceuticals as just one example.
In the high-tech industry, a interpreter or translator without the proper knowledge or domain expertise would be found out immediately. However, if the client goes trough a major tranlation firm such as Transperfect or LionBridge to name just two, there is a buffer between the translator and the client so this fact may be hidden to the detriment of the client.
So, as a translator, the fact is, the more specific you get, the more valued your services and translation work is and the more leverage you have to command higher rates for your work.
I. The 3 Pillars of Translations / Interpretation Work
1. Language source ability
2. Language target ability
3. Firm grasp of the "technology" (or domain expertise) in the middle
J. Does This Work Requirement Formal Language Training?
Bill entered the Navy in 1966 while the Cold War was raging and became a Russian language specialist. That later brought forth the opportunity to come to Japan and as a self-described autodidact. Bill seized the additional opportunity to learn and acquire the Japanese language.
His Japanese ability is self-taught. That is not to say there is anything against acquiring Japanese (or any language) through a formal education, but we should be aware that if the will is there, Japanese fluency can be acquired on one's own.
K. How Does The Japanese Language / Cultural Pressure For Nuance and Vagueness Affect This Process?
The deponent will have been prepped by his or her attorney prior to the deposition. And as such, they will have been coached or instructed on how direct, vague or indirect to be by said attorney.
But there are still issues. Take the Japanese term sumiwake ( 住み分け || すみわけ).
This can be a very innocuous term meaning "live and let live".... or "you have your space to live in and I have mine."
On the other hand, this can be interpreted (by US courts) as price fixing or dividing up the market. So how is this handled? It is extremely important how your interpreter handles such issues as interpreters don't have luxury of writing footnotes as a translator does.
L. What About the Difficulty In Mapping Concepts Between Cultures & Languages?
An example of this is corporate structures between the US and Japan, whereby the concepts are similar (shareholders, liability protection, etc.) but the actual mechanics, details and filing requirements may vary greatly.
So a C Corp. formation in US is similar to a Japanese K.K. (kabushiki gaisha) but doesn't map directly.
The same can be said with an LLC and the Japanese Yugen Gaisha (no longer an option, currently Y.G., such as Cisco Y.K. in Japan are grandfathers) and the Goudou Gaisha.
In interpretation and translation, accuracy is, therefore, extremely critical. This is even more important in bilingual patent depositions because a mistake or even missed nuance in the interpretive work can send an attorney down the wrong path wasting precious time and resources for each of these (very expensive) billable hours.
M. What Trends Do You See In The Market / Economy As Well As With The Globalization of Japanese Firms?
Over the last couple years, we've seen a continuous restructuring of the economy and a bit of a bumpy road for many industries.
At same time, it appears that IP battles are spinning up.
We seen Apples and Samsung suing each other.
We've seen Google purchase Motorola mobility reportedly for their patent portfolio (for patent defense).
Most of Bill's work is dealing with Japanees deponents such as when major manufacturers litigate against each other.
A trend in this regard is for Japanese firms to now more frequently use the ITC (International Trade Commission) to stop the infringements or to assert their patent rights.
The preferred venue is often the US and he has experienced this whereby two Japanese firms were fighting each other in the US over patents.
N. Non-Practicing Entities (NPE's) / Patent Trolls
The other trends is dealing with patent litigation brought against Japanese firms by the Non-Practicing Entities aka Patent Trolls.
These NPE's or Patent Trolls, may be organized around no more than two or three attorneys who have purchased a single patent or a portfolio comprised of just a few patents. They then assert their patents rights against (or prey on, depending your viewpoint) other companies.
These NPE's are the bane of many Japanese firms.
We also have seen many Japanese firms accelerating the globalization of their HR, expanding overseas directly or through M&A. Does this lead to more litigation in each of these foreign markets?
Not-necessarily. For instance, it's almost a non-starter trying to litigate to assert patent rights in China, so the firms in question would try to first assert patent rights, even against Chinese firms in the US courts or at a US venue first.
Increasingly, Chinese firms are also preferring to litigate in US courts or explore a US venue first.
O. Any Last Advice?
Again, when looking for expert and professional services, listen to someone who uses that person be they an interpreter, translator or related company.
Lise & Partners, Inc. Contact Details:
Japan Office:
Suite 113, 5-8-12 Himonya
Meguro-ku, Tokyo 211-0063
Tel: 03-3713-6447 (from within Japan)
Tel: 81-3-3713-6447 (from overseas)
Email: [email protected]
Suite 113, 5-8-12 Himonya
Meguro-ku, Tokyo 211-0063
Tel: 03-3713-6447 (from within Japan)
Tel: 81-3-3713-6447 (from overseas)
Email: [email protected]
